The madness of insight

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The madness of insight
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skydancer
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Recently on the night of the 14th of December 2014  which became the dawn of  the 15th of December 2014 the day before my 47th birthday a dream revelation I had 10+ years prior came into existence.

The reason I say 'the madness of insight'' is due to the fact of trying to work out which dreams are of the future as to be some guide for helps or are only dreams without any paranormal association.This has left me feeling very helpless and useless to the world community.
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Re: The madness of insight

Chaos
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Well, first off, let me point out that nobody has any obligation not to be useless to humanity or "the world community", whoever or whatever that is. So, if you feel useless, even if you *are* useless, don´t sweat it; it only makes you the same as 99.9% of humanity.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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Chaos wrote:Well, first off, let me point out that nobody has any obligation not to be useless to humanity or "the world community", whoever or whatever that is. So, if you feel useless, even if you *are* useless, don´t sweat it; it only makes you the same as 99.9% of humanity.
It's quite frustrating all the same.

Here's what I foreseen yet couldn't  know it at the time. About ten years ago in a rental house that I shared with my now current Ex, I dreamed that the brownish/redish  ceramic tiles in the bathroom were covered with a light colored Linoleum with those same ceramic tiles still remaining underneath. Yet all the time that I lived in that house,the bathroom never had Linoleum,neither was the adjoining room and Laundry room never had Linoleum either. 

Now I left that house with my Ex in June 2008 which was bought by the owner of the Bunbury Farmers Market and it was then occupied by Oriental men and women,as they worked across the road were the Bunbury Farmers Market was. The house was sold in early in 2014 to the owner of a Chemist in Bunbury who I approached over three months ago to see if I could rent that house as currently me and my Ex are in a horrible dispute about the house I am currently staying in as there's a big mortgage and I'm not budging until she takes me to court as I have five Cat friends.The owner of the Chemist said he couldn't rent the house out until the damage in the house was repaired due to vandals ripping out some of the plumbing because the Bunbury Council had put a work order on the house because of health risk and it was going to cost him $30,000 to fix with new carpets laid. He said the work on the house would be starting immediately and would be finished in six weeks time... Well it's been over 14 weeks with no work being done on it.

So I thought that house would be put up for rent when it was fixed well before Christmas and I would never be able to step foot in that house ever again as the rent was going to be way out of my price range.

But on the 14th December 2014 I caught the evening train into Bunbury with my napsack and water proof tent to catch the Bus the following day to go camping down south. So I thought I'd look at the house for one last time and noticed no one was occupying the house and I went on the front porch and peered through the lounge room window having a flurry of old memories of when me and my partner and all the cats were once living there. So I decided to go around the back of the house which had part of the fence missing and have one long last look before going to camp at the beach for that night, AND lo and behold the back door was wide open,so I hesitated and entered into the house expecting that someone could be squatting,though no one was there. I ventured back to the front porch and grabbed my gear and spent the night in that on the floor in my new sleeping bag drinking a few stubbies of beer.And when it was dawn I got up and looked at the bathroom and there was the light colored Linoleum with a chunck out of it exposing the brownish/redish ceramic tiles underneath as I had dreamed ten years prior when I was still living there.
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Re: The madness of insight

Asterion
Don't feel useless. And don't feel special. Just feel accepted.

Dreams that turn out to have some correspondence to later events are very common for people who remember their dreams. Even for people who don't think they are sufficient evidence of precognition. 

I've had some. The best two were related to my sister and my first crush. I dreamed my sister phoned me and told me she was getting married. A few days later, she phoned me and told me she was getting married. I didn't know she had a boyfriend. I dreamed I entered the university library and saw my crush was sitting where she usually does. In the dream she told me to bug off and never speak to her again. They next day I entered the library. She was sitting just there. And she told me to stay away from her.

How does one interpret these things? However you do.
I don't find them frustrating, because they don't make a freak out of me or push me at some unwanted worldview. 

My inner skeptic says the first was a coincidence and the second was simply what I feared would happen, based on the fact that she didn't like me. The part of me that wants some esoteric connection between people, would like to run with the dreams as some kind of telepathy. I let that  voice say what it pleases as well and don't let either paint me into a corner.

Critical thinking for me serves open mindedness.
So I suggest you interpret your experiences with an open, but not empty, mind.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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Are you saying I didn't foresee the future? Or are you saying that there's a perfect scientific explanation to what I experienced other than what could be called paranormal insight?
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Re: The madness of insight

Asterion
skydancer wrote:Are you saying I didn't foresee the future? Or are you saying that there's a perfect scientific explanation to what I experienced other than what could be called paranormal insight?
I'm saying you had a dream that came true. And I gave two examples of dreams I had that came true.
Did I foresee the future?
I didn't come down with a definitive on that. For me it's best to mull over the possibilities before coming to a conclusion. And sometimes I just don't come to a final this has to be it conclusion.

Skepticism would immediately dismiss the dreams as being coincidental or based on information we heard somewhere but didn't consciously register. Perhaps you heard from someone about the changes to the bathroom, but it only came to your conscious attention because of it being used in the dream. 

In my case, given my anxieties about Patricia, it's not a surprise I'd have a dream about her telling me to bug off at the place I most usually ran into her
..And if you'd known me at the time, you'd have advised her to tell me to go away.

There's no perfect scientific explanation here, just an accounting of circumstances without resorting to paranormal interpretations that don't have any scientific basis.


However, I didn't call your experience for you or impose my interpretation on it. You are free to mull. And I'm free to suggest.
Science deals with vthe general behavior of things, but in my opinion reality is more complex than our bipedal reach. So I can't dismiss that anomalies could happen.In fact it's in anomalies that Science has progressed. 
I'm not advocating for a Science of ESP. That hasn't panned out well anyway.

There is simply always mystery to mull over. Reality doesn't bow to Skepticism nor to New Age conceptions. I think it's great that it keeps us guessing.
An important part of what Critical Thinking means to me Is that it helps me avoid the shallow, dismissive conclusion. It has an element of openness about it. And it respects others process.

So again, I don't have that either otr about your dream. I'm not saying "perfect scientific explanation" or "paranormal insight. I really want to leave it open for your own critical and creative investigation. There's lot's of room in the world for people to have dreams that turn out to correspond to real life. Like I said, it happens a lot. Play with it.

Now I need to explain why it looks like I'm shouting at you. The big font is easier on my 63 year old
deteriorating eyesight It's not to make myself seem more important than I am, I'm just biologically diminishing.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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From my experience a lot of houses don't have Linoleum in the bathroom. They do tend to have ceramic tiles.

I didn't talk to anyone about changes to the bathroom as I didn't know any of the tenants occupying the house.

The house was to be fixed way before Christmas 2014 then immediately rented out which means the shabby linoleum would have been discarded and there by impossible for that part of the future to take place.

Then there's also the fluke chance of the undamaged back door being wide open,and then me being brave enough to spend the night there knowing that I was trespassing and could be charged for unlawful entry if caught.

That's a lot of factors that have to work together in making that dream be of the paranormal.

It took over ten years for that dream to come true and please remember that I was never the owner of that house,and also that that house and the surrounding vacant land WAS TO BE TURNED INTO A DAYCARE CENTRE YET THAT BUSINESS WENT BROKE which forced  the house and land to be sold to recover some costs which in turn forced me to shift to different town miles away from Bunbury City in 2008. 


  
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Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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I hope you realize it's not an anomaly at all.
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Re: The madness of insight

Asterion
Having a dream that comes true isn't an ordinary event for me. It's a rarity as opposed to the way my reality operates on a nightly basis.
Precognition and telepathy are considered "paranormal" because they aren't just normal.

Perhaps this is normal and very ordinary with you.
In any case I haven't denied or ruled out your experience.

You've titled your thread "The Madness of Insight." What is Insight for you, and why is it a madness?"
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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What's the point of seeing the future if I can't benefit people with it? and because of that  it has driven me mad.
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Re: The madness of insight

Asterion
Yeah. I guess if what you are able to see is only trivial and useless information (as in the example you gave), then it is of no help to yourself or others.

Since it isn't, I'd say don't waste any worry over a useless talent. Put your attention on developing those skills you are able to benefit yourself and others with. Don't be depressed over it. At least it's not hurting anyone. Imagine you could see the time and circumstances of someone's death. Imagine all the trouble that would cause! Be glad you don't have such a wretched talent!
Re: The madness of insight
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JohnLombard
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skydancer wrote:Are you saying I didn't foresee the future? Or are you saying that there's a perfect scientific explanation to what I experienced other than what could be called paranormal insight?
I will jump in here.  I personally would state that yes, you are not foreseeing the future.  In fact, nobody can foresee the future.  Every single person who's ever made a claim about being able to foresee the future, and then been properly tested under a controlled environment, has proven entirely unable to do so.

I'm fully aware that there are people who very sincerely believe that they have such powers, and even have experiences that seem to confirm those powers.  However, there are a variety of phenomenon that can account for this, without any supernatural or paranormal abilities involved.  I would suspect that, in your case, one or more of these would be the cause...although I would have no way of knowing which ones.

1) Psychological problems: Because of the more personal nature of this, I want to emphasize that I'm not stating that you have psychological problems, but rather that it is one of many possibilities.  You yourself will be more than aware that there are people who suffer from a variety of psychological conditions where they will see or hear things that don't really exist.  Those experiences can seem 100% real to the people who are experiencing them...but perception doesn't create reality.

2) Confirmation bias: Simply put, you only notice those things that support your belief, while ignoring or forgetting those things that don't.  To put this as simply as possible, consider someone who claims the power to predict what side a coin will land on when tossed.  Every time they guess correctly, they are excited...and when they guess correctly multiple times in a row (which is statistically certain to happen), they get even more excited, it seems to further support their belief.  However, when they guess incorrectly, they just dismiss it as a mistake...or say, "Oh, I actually meant to say the other one!"

The result?  If you actually kept track of their predictions, you'd find that they were correct pretty much 50% of the time, indicating no paranormal power whatsoever; yet in their own mind, they'll believe that they were actually getting 70% or  80% accuracy.

3) Your mind plays tricks on you.  This is different from point one.  Every person on the planet suffers from this problem.  It's been proven that both our perceptions and our memories are unreliable and inaccurate.  Many things that I remember, and you remember, are actually not true.  Our mind has altered them partially, or even created entirely fictitious memories.  Or things that we think we see/feel/experience never really happened, they were just created in our mind, or a result of our mind being fooled (a good example of the latter is optical illusions, or magic acts done by illusionists).

Another example of this is the sensation of deja vu, where you feel like you've seen/experienced something before.  In at least some cases, this has been shown to be a result of a mistake in the brain, where something that is happening now somehow gets put into the section of your brain for long-term memory.  The result is that, although it just happened, your brain tells you "this same thing happened to you before!"  In fact, scientists have been able to replicate this phenomenon under controlled circumstances.

4) Lack of understanding.  For quite a few people, such beliefs may come simply from a lack of understanding of how things actually work.  There may be an entirely rational, normal explanation...but because the people involved don't understand it, they see it as being paranormal or supernatural.

5) Plain old wish-fulfillment.  The persons wants it to be true, so they subconsciously fool themselves.

In summary -- I'm sure that your experiences are entirely real to you, and that you believe they are evidence of paranormal powers.  However, your personal claims and experiences don't serve as evidence of anything to other people.  There are tons of people who have experiences that they believe were true, but are quite demonstrably not true.

If you want to demonstrate the validity of your claims, simply writing anecdotes about personal experiences doesn't accomplish anything for you, or for anyone else here.  Anyone could come here and make any kind of claim...without evidence, it means nothing.  Instead, you should go about finding a way to prove or disprove your claims.  This should involve proper, scientific testing under controlled circumstances, with people other than yourself involved, using proper double-blind methodology.

You could find a local skeptic organization in your area, perhaps...explain your claim, work with them to set up criteria to actually test the claim.  If, under those conditions, you prove to have an 'ability' that they cannot explain, then perhaps there's more room for discussion (and you could potentially win $1 million if you could prove you had such a power, from the James Randi Educational Foundation).  But lacking that, this is just a discussion with someone making claims they cannot prove, and discussing it with people who have no ability to test or confirm the truth of those claims.

And that kind of discussion is pretty much pointless.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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 I personally would state that yes, you are not foreseeing the future.  In fact, nobody can foresee the future
How can you say your personal statement is factual?
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Re: The madness of insight
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MattusMaximus
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Skydancer, think of it this way: how many dreams have you had that *haven't* come to pass in some form?

Also, I would caution you into reading too much into this, especially because you are recalling events from 10 years ago, and human memory is much more malleable than we all care to admit. It is entirely possible that you are, unconsciously, changing your memories of the old dream to fit your recent observations, leading to the erroneous conclusion that your earlier dream "predicted" these events. We do this sort of thing all the time, even it we are not aware of it.

Here's a good article on the malleability of memory - Loftus's research is quite fascinating:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/18/health/lifeswork-loftus-memory-malleability/
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Re: The madness of insight
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JohnLombard
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skydancer wrote:
 I personally would state that yes, you are not foreseeing the future.  In fact, nobody can foresee the future
How can you say your personal statement is factual?

You are looking at the question the wrong way. There are numerous people making claims all the time. "I can see the future" "I was abducted by aliens" "I believe that god is a pink teapot" Etc., etc., etc.

Every person will claim that what they are saying is true, and will believe that what they are saying is true. And many of them will say, "You can't prove that it is not true." In that regard, they are quite correct.

I cannot prove 100% that person can't tell the future, or wasn't abducted by aliens, or that god is not a pink teapot. Nor, for that matter, can I give 100% proof that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy aren't real.

My reality is not defined by what I cannot prove...if I were to do that, I'd have to believe almost every claim ever made by anybody.

Instead, I have to look at what proof there is to support that claim. And that's what I'm doing here.

1) In absolutely every single properly conducted scientific test I've ever heard of that tested a person's ability to tell the future, they failed entirely. I have never heard of any such test that had positive results. The only time that tests have had positive results is when they've been conducted in a non-scientific manner that allows for bias, inaccurate results, cheating, etc.

2) The established laws of physics say that such an ability is impossible, and all scientific tests conducted in this area have confirmed that. It doesn't mean it's absolutely impossible...but there's no evidence to support the claim it is possible.

3) There are numerous non-supernatural, non-paranormal explanations that can account for this, as I explained above. Why should I accept a paranormal claim that has no evidence, when there are normal answers that are supported by evidence?

Essentially, if you want to convince me that your claim is valid, it's not enough to just tell me an anecdote...you could be lying, you could be exaggerating, you could be delusional, you could be imagining it, etc. You need to produce evidence of your claim which is greater than the evidence I already have to indicate your claim is true. If you can do that, I will consider your claim very seriously; but lacking that, I have no reason to do so.

If you think this is unreasonably closed-minded, let me ask you this. Let's say you meet some guy on the street, he says that he can sell you a special medicine for $500 that, if you take it, will cure any illness. He tells you wonderful stories about how he and his family have used it, and been cured of cancer, AIDS, and all sorts of other stuff. He then asks if you want to buy it.

Will you fork out $500 for his medicine? I doubt it. Because despite all his claims and stories, the fact is that his claims just don't fit with the evidence that you have...that there is no medicine that cures every illness, and if such a medicine existed, it wouldn't be sold by some nameless guy on a street corner. I hope that, before you were willing to buy it, you'd first demand that he provide much greater evidence that it actually works.

That's what I'm saying about you. Right now, all I have is stories from you, which are absolutely impossible for me to test or confirm. Those stories contradict tons of scientific evidence which indicates such an ability is not possible. So, if you want to convince me, more stories don't mean a thing. Like I said in my previous post, contact local skeptic organizations, and get yourself tested under proper scientific conditions. If it proves to work, then yes, I'd be willing to at least reconsider my position.

But lacking that, all you have is stories. Anyone can make stories. They are evidence of nothing.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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MattusMaximus wrote:Skydancer, think of it this way: how many dreams have you had that *haven't* come to pass in some form?

Also, I would caution you into reading too much into this, especially because you are recalling events from 10 years ago, and human memory is much more malleable than we all care to admit. It is entirely possible that you are, unconsciously, changing your memories of the old dream to fit your recent observations, leading to the erroneous conclusion that your earlier dream "predicted" these events. We do this sort of thing all the time, even it we are not aware of it.

Here's a good article on the malleability of memory - Loftus's research is quite fascinating:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/18/health/lifeswork-loftus-memory-malleability/
Well her research isn't what I would call strictly scientific in studying peoples memories. For example having a bunch of people watching videos of car accidents and then asking them to recall is not the same of a personal experience of it. Then asking the group at what estimated speed the cars were travelling at by  her changing a word to show they on average had the cars going at 7 miles faster is a very slight distortion of their memory.

As for that particular dream that came true 10 years later? Well I had thought about it many times over that 10 year period which isn't the same as having a sort of ''oh yeah I remember something about it,um er ah I think''?

I was up to date on it because to my mind having linoleum in the bathroom did n't make sense and I had been out of that rental property for over six years... Though thanks for that link as it showed me how easy people can believe skeptics because they call themselves skeptics.Like it's some sort of normal social authority.
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Re: The madness of insight
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Hokulele
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What percentage of your dreams come true?  Do you have any other examples?
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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Hokulele wrote:What percentage of your dreams come true?  Do you have any other examples?
way under 1% .... which is way above 0%

Say for example there was ten thousand water diviners and not one succeeded then that's a 100% fail. And say 10 million water diviners couldn't succeed then that's also 100% fail... but the point I am making that it's not a percentage game yet rather a positive strike,and that's what I've had according to some dreams which by the way were outside of my influence.

I could not and did not play a part of making the bathroom have the shabby light coloured linoleum placed over the brownish/red ceramic tiles.

I could not and did not play a part in making the back door be wide open so that if I wanted to unlawfully enter the vacant house.

I did not make the house be vacant so that I could at some time and somehow enter the house.


So those things are outside of my influence....

And I held back by not telling you skeptics and people all of the dream that I had ten years prior.Also in the dream the inside of the house the walls have something inside them that were not there before and the wooden door frames have square like holes cut in them... The walls had new electrical light switches adjacent to the old light switches which were once in the wooden door frames throughout the house. The old light switches had been totally removed while leaving in place the originally exposed cut holes in the wooden door frames..... This ain't about what is normal.This is from Almighty God to show me that my end is near and the end is near for the world system as foretold.
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Re: The madness of insight

Asterion
skydancer wrote:
Hokulele wrote:What percentage of your dreams come true?  Do you have any other examples?
way under 1% .... which is way above 0%

Say for example there was ten thousand water diviners and not one succeeded then that's a 100% fail. And say 10 million water diviners couldn't succeed then that's also 100% fail... but the point I am making that it's not a percentage game yet rather a positive strike,and that's what I've had according to some dreams which by the way were outside of my influence.

I could not and did not play a part of making the bathroom have the shabby light coloured linoleum placed over the brownish/red ceramic tiles.

I could not and did not play a part in making the back door be wide open so that if I wanted to unlawfully enter the vacant house.

I did not make the house be vacant so that I could at some time and somehow enter the house.


So those things are outside of my influence....

And I held back by not telling you skeptics and people all of the dream that I had ten years prior.Also in the dream the inside of the house the walls have something inside them that were not there before and the wooden door frames have square like holes cut in them... The walls had new electrical light switches adjacent to the old light switches which were once in the wooden door frames throughout the house. The old light switches had been totally removed while leaving in place the originally exposed cut holes in the wooden door frames..... This ain't about what is normal.This is from Almighty God to show me that my end is near and the end is near for the world system as foretold.
"This is from Almighty God to show methat my end is near and the end is near for the world system as foretold."

I I had told you that my dream which came true in detail that my crush would tell me to bug off was a message from God that not only was my life at an end but it was the beginning of the Apocalypse, you'd at best be concerned for my emotional state. 

Skydancer, you have attached a lot more to this event than fits.
I had a dream my sister was getting married. She did.
I had dream my crush would reject me. She did.
You had a dream about a house being remodeled. And that's supposed to foretell your death and the end of the world?

I hope you are just pranking us.

Re: The madness of insight

Asterion
Skydancer,

Please accept my apology for bring personal content, questions and remarks to your thread. 
Especially in the previous post. I'm sorry I questioned your experiences, beliefs, and feelings in any way.
I misunderstood the purpose of your thread and this forum, which is to discuss ideas, not people. 
Please continue to share your insights.

Also I apologize to you and everyone in this forum for using the big font. I did it because of my eyesight, but there have been complaints. So I will use ordinary size from now on.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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Asterion wrote:Skydancer,

Please accept my apology for bring personal content, questions and remarks to your thread. 
Especially in the previous post. I'm sorry I questioned your experiences, beliefs, and feelings in any way.
I misunderstood the purpose of your thread and this forum, which is to discuss ideas, not people. 
Please continue to share your insights.

Also I apologize to you and everyone in this forum for using the big font. I did it because of my eyesight, but there have been complaints. So I will use ordinary size from now on.
Why should I accept your apology when you don't even know what you're apologizing for.

Do a Sherlock and see what I have posted according to a certain time period and the chances of how many things needed to gel together to happen ten years later and then you may give a thought how science is not above personal experiences when much consideration and critical thought has been first off given to myself to debunk myself by myself............ and the big font isn't shouting me down when one has a vision impairment due to old age or and disabilities. Okay sweet .
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Re: The madness of insight
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JohnLombard
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skydancer wrote:Do a Sherlock and see what I have posted according to a certain time period and the chances of how many things needed to gel together to happen ten years later and then you may give a thought how science is not above personal experiences when much consideration and critical thought has been first off given to myself to debunk myself by myself.

skydancer -- Unfortunately, "debunking yourself" is one of the worst ways of 'proving' anything. Again, allow me to illustrate:

I have a friend who worked in a psychological care facility. There was a guy there who claimed he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Another guy who claimed he was dead, and was actually a zombie. Both were absolutely, 100% convinced of the truth of their claims. Both of them could cite lots of 'evidence' of their claims...evidence which they said they had personally tested, and verified to be true.

Would you, meeting such people, be prepared to say, "Okay, I guess that's a valid claim. You are Jesus, and you are a zombie"?

I doubt it.

From our perspective, your claim is no different. You are presenting us with a claim that A) we cannot test, and B) contradicts all scientific evidence.

And I'm sorry, but personal experience and science are not equivalent. Not even close. There are numerous documented "personal experiences" that can seem 100% real and true to the person experiencing them...but that can be absolutely proven not true.

ANYONE could come here and say, "I had a dream that came true". They could be lying. They could be delusional. They could be in error. Or, perhaps, they could be telling the truth, and be 100% right. But it is absolutely impossible for any of us to differentiate between them. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to take such a claim seriously, unless that claim can actually be tested and verified. It may be that to you, it is 100% real; but as I've emphasized several times, that means absolutely nothing in terms of demonstrating to others that it is true.
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skydancer
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This site is designed to be told by the owner that I am lying unless he can personally bear witness......

Now I fully see what skeptic sites are always saying about in disclosing their pre-advanced and steadfast answer  while enticing a question......... the game is up........ ciao
 
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Re: The madness of insight
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JohnLombard
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skydancer wrote:This site is designed to be told by the owner that I am lying unless he can personally bear witness......

Now I fully see what skeptic sites are always saying about in disclosing their pre-advanced and steadfast answer  while enticing a question......... the game is up........ ciao
 

Not at all.

I'm not saying that you are lying. In fact, I think that you believe very sincerely that what you are saying is true.

But just because you say it is true, doesn't mean that it is true. Just like if someone comes here and says they are Jesus, and they believe it is true...that doesn't mean it is true.

I asked you several questions, which you didn't respond to. So please do so now. If you met someone who said they were the reincarnation of Jesus, or that they had a medicine that could cure every illness...and they couldn't give you any evidence, they just told you, "I had a personal experience, and I believe it is true"...would YOU believe that what they said was true?

I suspect the answer is no, even though they are convinced it is true.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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The Jesus comparison is so weak that I have doubts that you know much about the ministry of Jesus and those who followed after him such as the last apostle who name is Saul and was also called Paul.

Paul writes how Jesus comes from the clouds with his angels who are the reapers  to judge the people on the Earth at the last day,Yet before he does this,the Beast and many lying wonders are to take place... So when you say a man says that he is Jesus then that is so easy to debunk by what the Holy Scriptures say.....

You haven't even tried to break down the dream I told you about because ''you'' say it's not possible..... Not even Lawrence Krauss or any other scientist ever says that something as foreseeing the future is not possible,they say that it's very unlikely.

Please try and discuss my dream and not other peoples stuff which has no bearing on my experience.

And how could science test my dream ten years ago?Should have approached some scientist and say oh I had a dream but I don't know if it's of the future or not... Wouldn't  the scientist start asking questions as to with I thought my mind was being used by the supernatural to foresee the future?
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Re: The madness of insight
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JohnLombard
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skydancer:

1) The Jesus example isn't ridiculous; the person in question says that they are Jesus, and that the New Testament is not accurate, that some people changed it in order to fit their own agenda. They say that now they've come back to reveal the 'real truth'.

There is nothing you can say that 'proves' their claim is false. Yet, obviously, you won't believe them. (Not only that, but in your "debunking" of them, you're not relying on anything scientific at all, but instead relying on personal beliefs which are just as untestable as the ones he's stating)

2) You failed again to respond to the question about the guy who says he has a medicine that can cure everything.

3) I agree 100% with you that this particular claim cannot be tested scientifically. That's part of my point -- a claim which is impossible to test can ONLY be evaluated based on the evidence at hand. In your case, on the one hand we have your claims, which are impossible to test or verify; and on the other hand, we have the evidence of literally thousands of physicists that indicates what you are claiming is impossible.

Let me ask you a final question, to hopefully explain further.

You come on this forum. You tell us a story about something that happened ten years ago. You can offer zero proof, only your personal experience. You then get upset when we question it, when we say that without better evidence, we have no reason to believe it.

You say that we are being unreasonable.

So my question: Does this mean that every single person who comes here and says, "I had a dream about such-and-such", or "I had an experience about such-and-such", that I must believe them, too? Or is it only you who gets this 'special' status?

I set up this site, Wrest In Peace, to allow discussion on claims exactly like yours. But that doesn't mean that everyone must believe every claim, or give every claim equal status. The greater the evidence for a claim, the greater that claim's validity; the less evidence there is for a claim, the lesser that claim's validity.

I'm certain that there are things that others are going to say that you will disagree with -- and you are perfectly free to disagree with them, and tell them why. By the same token, others are perfectly free to disagree with your claims, and explain why. If you are expecting some sort of mindless, "Oh, you said it is true, so it must be true!" kind of response, then you are most definitely in the wrong place.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for a place where people can disagree with each other respectfully, without personal attacks, insults, etc., and NOT be offended just because other people don't believe everything you claim...then I think you could enjoy your time here.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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I am not upset at all.

Your thing about a guy claiming to be Jesus is easy to dismiss because it does not fit in with the Scriptures.It's really that simple.

And you're still refusing to get into a discussion.
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Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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So what if a guy claimed he had a medicine to cure all ailments, I would ask him to show the medicine,only because he claims to have it.And if he refuses to show it then I don't have to believe him,but he still may have that medicine that cures all.

Randi believes that if someone really has magic powers then they would take up his challenge and win the prize.Now has does Randi come to that conclusion?
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Re: The madness of insight
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Hokulele
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skydancer wrote:I am not upset at all.

Your thing about a guy claiming to be Jesus is easy to dismiss because it does not fit in with the Scriptures.It's really that simple.

And you're still refusing to get into a discussion.
And of course, this assumes the Scriptures are accurate, something else for which there is little evidence.

Hm...
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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Hokulele wrote:
skydancer wrote:I am not upset at all.

Your thing about a guy claiming to be Jesus is easy to dismiss because it does not fit in with the Scriptures.It's really that simple.

And you're still refusing to get into a discussion.
And of course, this assumes the Scriptures are accurate, something else for which there is little evidence.

Hm...
but those scriptures are saying how he would return
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Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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would the person be using the very scripture that talks about Jesus to say how the Jesus mention in the scripture is not that  foretold Jesus of how he is to return?
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Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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Could you be wrong John Lombard about the idea of extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence (scientific based?).
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Re: The madness of insight
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JohnLombard
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skydancer wrote:Could you be wrong John Lombard about the idea of extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence (scientific based?).

I could be wrong about absolutely everything. In fact, I'm 100% certain that there are some things that I believe are true now, which actually are not true. Nobody has 100% knowledge or truth.

Problem is, although I know there must be some things I believe that are not true (or perhaps incomplete), I don't know which things those are. So I have two options. First option is just believe everything people tell me, with or without evidence. But that way is an exercise in futility, and leads to ignorance, not to greater knowledge. The second option is to rely on evidence...if you can show me GREATER EVIDENCE than what I currently have, for a claim that I currently think is wrong, then I will certainly reconsider my conclusion. But if I have a massive load of verifiable evidence that supports my belief, and little or no verifiable evidence to support a contrary claim, then I see no reason whatsoever to reject my claim in favor of the other.

And again, a question for you. Please answer this question clearly.

Basically, what you have given me is A) a story about a personal experience, and B) your claim that you have personally tested your experience. You cannot offer me any proof or evidence that can be verified, only your story. Yet you seem to expect that I should accept it as true.

Does this then mean that every single time someone comes here and says, "I had a dream that predicted the future, and I tested myself and found it true", that I MUST also believe their claim? That my standard for accepting what other people say should simply be, "I say that it's true"?

Because to me, that is absolute nonsense. I would never, ever expect someone else to blindly accept a claim that I made, just because I said it's true...even if I myself am certain that it is. And I will never accept such a claim from you, or anyone else.

It may be that what you are saying is 100% true (although I personally don't believe it is...I think that your memory has played tricks on you, and that your own bias has led you to this conclusion); but without evidence, I have no more reason to accept your claim, than I do the claim of anyone else who makes a claim with zero evidence to support it.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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JohnLombard wrote:
skydancer wrote:Could you be wrong John Lombard about the idea of extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence (scientific based?).

I could be wrong about absolutely everything. In fact, I'm 100% certain that there are some things that I believe are true now, which actually are not true. Nobody has 100% knowledge or truth.

Problem is, although I know there must be some things I believe that are not true (or perhaps incomplete), I don't know which things those are. So I have two options. First option is just believe everything people tell me, with or without evidence. But that way is an exercise in futility, and leads to ignorance, not to greater knowledge. The second option is to rely on evidence...if you can show me GREATER EVIDENCE than what I currently have, for a claim that I currently think is wrong, then I will certainly reconsider my conclusion. But if I have a massive load of verifiable evidence that supports my belief, and little or no verifiable evidence to support a contrary claim, then I see no reason whatsoever to reject my claim in favor of the other.

And again, a question for you. Please answer this question clearly.

Basically, what you have given me is A) a story about a personal experience, and B) your claim that you have personally tested your experience. You cannot offer me any proof or evidence that can be verified, only your story. Yet you seem to expect that I should accept it as true.

Does this then mean that every single time someone comes here and says, "I had a dream that predicted the future, and I tested myself and found it true", that I MUST also believe their claim? That my standard for accepting what other people say should simply be, "I say that it's true"?

Because to me, that is absolute nonsense. I would never, ever expect someone else to blindly accept a claim that I made, just because I said it's true...even if I myself am certain that it is. And I will never accept such a claim from you, or anyone else.

It may be that what you are saying is 100% true (although I personally don't believe it is...I think that your memory has played tricks on you, and that your own bias has led you to this conclusion); but without evidence, I have no more reason to accept your claim, than I do the claim of anyone else who makes a claim with zero evidence to support it.
Yet you did accept Jesus without any evidence so you are lying in your statement that you didn't need personal or scientific evidence.
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Re: The madness of insight
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JohnLombard
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skydancer wrote:Yet you did accept Jesus without any evidence so you are lying in your statement that you didn't need personal or scientific evidence.

Huh?

I'm an atheist. I don't "accept Jesus". I consider it possible that there was a human being with that name, although am not convinced. However, I see no reason whatsoever to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, or had any supernatural powers.

My only references to Jesus above were hypotheticals, and you really need to start reading more carefully what others are saying, because this is not the first time that you've very clearly misinterpreted or misrepresented what others are saying.

In addition, saying that I am lying is coming dangerously close to a personal attack, which is against forum rules; please exercise caution in how you express yourself, especially when such accusations are clearly and demonstrably untrue.

And finally, having established that I do NOT accept Jesus, answer the question in my previous post. You have a strong tendency to avoid answering questions directed towards you unless we push you, preferring instead to use tactics such as here, to divert attention by accusing others of lying, or saying things that they didn't actually say. I've done my best to honestly respond to and answer all of your questions; I expect you to demonstrate the same level of honesty towards my inquiries.
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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JohnLombard wrote:
skydancer wrote:Yet you did accept Jesus without any evidence so you are lying in your statement that you didn't need personal or scientific evidence.

Huh?

I'm an atheist. I don't "accept Jesus". I consider it possible that there was a human being with that name, although am not convinced. However, I see no reason whatsoever to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, or had any supernatural powers.

My only references to Jesus above were hypotheticals, and you really need to start reading more carefully what others are saying, because this is not the first time that you've very clearly misinterpreted or misrepresented what others are saying.

In addition, saying that I am lying is coming dangerously close to a personal attack, which is against forum rules; please exercise caution in how you express yourself, especially when such accusations are clearly and demonstrably untrue.

And finally, having established that I do NOT accept Jesus, answer the question in my previous post. You have a strong tendency to avoid answering questions directed towards you unless we push you, preferring instead to use tactics such as here, to divert attention by accusing others of lying, or saying things that they didn't actually say. I've done my best to honestly respond to and answer all of your questions; I expect you to demonstrate the same level of honesty towards my inquiries.
What are you on about? 

You once accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour so don't twist things.. And when you are found out to be lying then cop it pal.
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Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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DID YOU JOHN LOMBARD ONCE BELIEVE IN JESUS THE SON OF GOD WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE?

SO DON'T TELL ME THAT YOU NEED PERSONAL OR SCIENTIFIC PROOF TO PREACH SOMETHING YOU ONCE BIG MOUTH PREACHER..........  LOOK AT YOUR PAST AS WELL AS YOUR PRESENT AND YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING....
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Re: The madness of insight
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JohnLombard
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skydancer,

First, a warning.  You are treading dangerously close to breaking forum rules. 

Yes, there was a time when I was a Christian.  I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior when I was eight years old.  Many years later, I came to China as a missionary.

However, that was many years ago, when I had much less understanding of being a critical thinker, and of the value of evidence.  Full disclosure, there was also a time when I believed in Santa Claus.  The reason I rejected belief in Santa and Jesus is the same reason that I reject your claim -- that there was no real evidence to support them, and plentiful evidence to contradict them.

To point to a decision that I made when I was eight years old, and say that this somehow 'proves' that I am a liar today, is ludicrous.  Your arguments are rapidly descending in the realm of a troll, rather than rational discussion.  You refuse to answer questions posed to you, while making increasingly ludicrous accusations on your side.
Re: The madness of insight
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Hokulele
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skydancer wrote:would the person be using the very scripture that talks about Jesus to say how the Jesus mention in the scripture is not that  foretold Jesus of how he is to return?
What if someone told you they are Jesus, and those scriptures are wrong.  Would you believe them?
Re: The madness of insight
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skydancer
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Hokulele wrote:
skydancer wrote:would the person be using the very scripture that talks about Jesus to say how the Jesus mention in the scripture is not that  foretold Jesus of how he is to return?
What if someone told you they are Jesus, and those scriptures are wrong.  Would you believe them?
This thread is not about Jesus.... It's about some guy who made a website who invited people to talk about their experiences while lying about that invatation because he says one can't prove unless they follow the scientific standard.

Then why have a Paranormal and Unexplained board when the owner and his lap dogs have a auto response...


It's a fucking trap to belittle the person who tries to explain about why they believe in out of the regular experiences.

This site will never grow because of that.
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